OPEN Echoes

OPEN Echoes - EP006 - NATO - Latin America Cooperation by Dr. Carlos Gustavo Poggio Teixeira

OPEN ECHOES Episode #6
An audio reading of “NATO – Latin America Future Cooperation” by Dr. Carlos Gustavo Poggio Teixeira.
Listeners can access the original publication here. 
The reading length is approximately 38 minutes.
OPEN Echoes reflects the original thoughts, analyses, and viewpoints shared by academics, thought leaders and non-military experts — spreading ideas, perspectives, and insights across the globe.
It’s our hope that the insights shared in these episodes will help to impact and influence thinking and conversations long after you take off your headphones.
OPEN Echoes alternates episodes between compelling interviews with non-NATO subject matter experts, and readings from OPEN's wide range of publications. In this episode, we present an audio recording of the OPEN Publication, “NATO – Latin America Future Cooperation” by Dr. Carlos Gustavo Poggio Teixeira.
Listeners should note that this audio reading does not include the references, images or diagrams included in the original publication. References, images and diagrams can be found in the original publication, which can be accessed and downloaded here. 

OPEN Echoes - EP005 - Dr. Stavros Karamperidis

OPEN ECHOES Episode #5
An interview with Dr. Stavros Karamperidis
OPEN Echoes reflects the original thoughts, analyses, and viewpoints shared by academics, thought leaders and non-military experts — spreading ideas, perspectives, and insights across the globe.
It’s our hope that the insights shared in these episodes will help to impact and influence thinking and conversations long after you take off your headphones.
OPEN Echoes alternates episodes between compelling interviews with non-NATO subject matter experts, and readings from OPEN's wide range of publications. In this episode, we interview Dr. Stavros Karamperidis .
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Dr. Stavros Karamperidis is a lecturer in Maritime Economics at the University of Plymouth and serves as the Head of the Maritime Transport Research Group. With over 15 years of experience in academia and strong industry involvement, he has established himself as an expert in maritime security, including piracy, decarbonization, and digitalization. His research is driven by a commitment to understanding and addressing the challenges facing the maritime industry. Dr. Karamperidis is particularly passionate about shedding light on the hidden heroes of global trade—the seafarers—and highlighting their critical role in maintaining the global supply chain. His work on piracy in the Gulf of Guinea, which has cost the blue economy an estimated 1.9 billion USD annually, underscores his dedication to uncovering the root causes of piracy and advocating for comprehensive solutions. Dr. Karamperidis' research contributes not only to enhancing our understanding of maritime security issues but also to finding practical ways to mitigate their impact on both the industry and the broader economy.
This OPEN Echoes interview explores:
- Recognition of the vital role of seafarers in global trade, the impact of COVID-19 on maritime industry and realization of its significance.
- Exploration of piracy's economic impact and root causes, including the annual 1.9 billion USD cost of piracy in the Gulf of Guinea.
- Examination of historical piracy incidents and patterns, including Somalia's piracy spike.
- Interaction of piracy with geopolitical factors, the influence of political conflicts on piracy activities, and the connection between oil prices and piracy in the Gulf of Guinea.
- Strategies for addressing piracy, including the importance of land-based issues and root causes; coordinating efforts among local authorities, NGOs, and naval forces; and optimizing resource allocation in the face of limited naval assets.
Summary and conclusion:
- The need for a comprehensive, coordinated approach to tackling piracy.
Dr. Karamperidis' article (in partnership with Dr. Fotios Moustakis) "The Gulf of Guinea (GoG) and Maritime Security," is available on here.
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Welcome to OPEN Echoes. OPEN stands for “Other Perspectives Exchange Network.” Our mission is to explore diverse, insightful and sometimes disruptive viewpoints on matters crucial to NATO.
The lightly-edited transcript of this episode’s interview with Dr. Karamperidis follows:
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Dave Summers: Stavros, so nice to meet you.
Dr. Stavros Karamperidis: Likewise, Dave. It's a great pleasure to be here.
Dave: Let's just jump in. If you don't mind, I typically have our guests introduce themselves. So, if you don't mind, just give us a short introduction as to who you are and how you got to this point in your life.
Dr. Karamperidis: OK. So, my name is Stavros. I'm a lecturer in Maritime Economics at the University of Plymouth and Head of the Maritime Transport Research Group. And I've been working in the academia in the last 15 years, but I'm also having great involvement with the industry and that's why if you see my CV, you will see that I have a good interaction with a lot of research that I'm doing.
And one part of that is the article that you're discussing from NATO where part of my research I'm having three main pillars. The first one is on decarbonization. The second is on digitalization. The third most important, the security and security is in two sub pillars. One is the physical security and the other is the digital security. So you will see a lot of publications coming from me on cyber security, physical security about piracy and the one that we're going to discuss later on. But also how parts can be secure, what kind of actions they can take and all that kind of stuff.
Dave: I'm wondering Stavros, who or what inspired or influenced you to write about this particular issue?
Dr. Karamperidis: What really inspired me to write about this specific issue was that there are a lot of seafarers that are suffering at the moment and they are the hidden heroes.
Recently, I've done another podcast about the welfare of the people living on board and working on the various vessels and working in various ports and in general, working in the maritime transport sector.
And what we have found out is that they're usually hidden, you can recall what has happened to Los Angeles a couple of months ago when we had the COVID issue with the big container vessels piling up for a long period of time outside the Los Angeles port. And then suddenly everybody realized that oh my God, shipping is so important for our economy.
Just to remind you that nearly 80 to 85% of the goods that we're consuming. And I'm not talking about only our laptops, the mobile phones, whatever we're doing the headset we're wearing. Now, in order to the podcast are coming on containers. Also, the energy that we're having is coming through tankers or L NZ carriers, depending if it's gas or diesel. the food that we're consuming is coming with dry bulk, usually come from Brazil or other places like Ukraine. For example, you've seen what happened with the fight over there between Russia and Ukraine and the problem that we had in order to export a lot of grains.
And that was the real motivation that because we have pirates nowadays, believe it or not, you know, it's a very, very famous pirate Jack Sparrow and you know, the, the Pirates of the Caribbean and all that kind of stuff. And everybody will start, you know, familiarizing themselves with the movie and all that kind of stuff, I think. Yes, in a matter of movie of Hollywood, it is nice to see someone doing that kind of stuff.
But in real life when you have 20 to 25 people on board a vessel and some nasty pirates getting on board with real arms, try to, dictate the vessel, dictate their lives and all that kind of stuff. It's very scary and to be frank, you know, being a sailor, it's a very, a difficult job by definition because you're remote from your family, from your friends, everybody, you're in some cases you are isolated from the web because satellite is not providing good coverage and all that kind of stuff. You know, you don't really need to have on top of that piracy, which is another layer of risk and uncomfort.
So that was the overall motivation of doing that because I thought by bringing a bit of more understanding about the issue, we could probably try to solve it easier.
Dave: I'm wondering how did you approach the whole process that's involved in analysis and presentation of this rather complex information?
Dr. Karamperidis: So I started by providing a general overview of what has happened in the last couple of years for me. I really want to understand what had happened in the past. And as I'm saying, in the report, there are various regions around the globe that some of them, they're increasing in terms of piracy and some of those they're decreasing in terms of piracy.
So for instance, if we go back to another movie, Captain Phillips, which was a hostage of the captain of Maersk Alabama with Tom Hanks. of course, acting as Captain Phillips, it was demonstrated about the coast of Somalia. Back then, pirates were dominating the region. A lot of vessels have been under attack and Maersk Alabama was one of them.
And the peculiarity of Maersk Alabama was a vessel with an American flag. And of course, the US Navy went over there and thankfully managed to solve the situation. But back then 2009 until 2014-15, if I'm not mistaken, sorry, time is not helping now to find the actual date. But it was a couple of years that we had a huge spike in piracy.
And thankfully NATO with the, the overall operation, ocean sealed, they went over there and they managed to tackle piracy. Of course, why in that specific area? Because Somalia as you may know is a state that didn't really have a government or actually doesn't really have a government so far. And that was a very fertile land for pirates because they knew that there was no laws. If they were doing something bad, nobody is going to go after them.
And Somalia if you check, it is actually at the exit of the Suez Canal. And from going back again in the news, nearly two years ago when the Ever Given was stuck in Suez Canal, we suddenly realized that 9.5 billion of trade per day are passing through that corridor.
So actually Somalia is at the exit of the Suez Canal. So for them, it's, it's like fishing at the end of the lake. You know, it's easy, it was easy for them to go and catch those vessels and attack those vessels that they were having valuable cargo and of course valuable crew on board because they can ask for ransoms and so forth and so on and of course, asking ransoms for the vessel.
But as I said, you know, the operation NATO operation has managed to help to tackle  that issue. But of course, the operation took on in that specific area, but not in others. And unfortunately, we seen spike in terrorism, not in terrorism, sorry, in piracy in other attacks like the Gulf of Guinea.
And that was the reason why I've said, ok, let's try to get a bit of more understanding of what is happening in the Gulf of Guinea and how probably we can tackle that problem as piracy by having better knowledge, better understanding of what's going on.
Dave: I'm wondering when do you anticipate seeing, tangible changes or results or progress in relation to this specific issue?
Dr. Karamperidis: Actually, if we check the latest data that has been released like a month ago. So the data for 2022 we've seen some changes, so we've seen a drop in the pirate attacks because of the coordination of the virus forces with the naval operations down there.
Nigeria has taken a lot of actions in terms of piracy and all the coordination that is taking place with the US, the European Union and other member states. They have managed to help the reduction of the overall piracy attacks.
Of course, I'm not quite sure if that's only due to the fact that we had that kind of coordination and the overall naval forces operating there. Because as you may know, a lot of naval forces since the invasion in Ukraine has been redeployed in the North Sea and in other regions. So they can keep an eye on what is happening for the conflict that we have between Russia and Ukraine.
But what we have found in our report, was that piracy was linked with oil in the region. And because of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, as you know, oil price has dropped in the last couple of months. And because we anticipate that because the oil has dropped, then the interest of the pirates has dropped as well because they are not seeing the same economic benefits they used to have in the past.
So I think it's a core combination of a lot of good things that they led to the outcome of seeing a drop in piracy. And of course, that's tailor made to the specific region because if we see other regions in the globe, like for example, the Singapore Straits, we're seeing a constant and decrease in terms of the piracy attacks here and here.
So, that's why we wanted, I wanted to focus on a specific region to find out what is happening in the Gulf of Guinea. And I hope that my report has helped people to take actions and those actions at least, they seem to work at the moment.
Dave: And that's great. And that leads into my next question, which ishow, do you believe that this publication, your article has contributed to a broader conversation and better understanding of this issue?
Dr. Karamperidis: To be honest, I haven't really been following up what happened after the publication. But my gut feeling says from the feedback I've got from various people reading the report, it was that that was a useful piece of work that was very enlightening. And because of as you know, knowledge is the key, it's like if you want to do something, you have to have intelligence, you have to have knowledge.
And that report I think had helped people operating in the region to understand what was the root of the problem. I think the main key area and the root of the problem was oil. And by the time they managed to tackle the oil and, and to give you a fact for, for Nigeria, 6% of the oil being produced in Nigeria is going to the black market.
So instantly we have a huge black market that the oil can be distributed. And of course, that was the problem with piracy because there was a big black market in the region. The moment they were able to tackle to get a tanker, they were able to sell the product in the black market and make a lot of money. And of course, at the same time as for ransoms for the crew and the vessel, and I think providing that kind of information that protect that kind of infrastructure, try to tackle first what is happening in the land in order to tackle what is happening in the sea.
I think that has helped a lot because at the end of the day, as I mentioned, also for, for Somalia, if you have good law laws into the land, into the land elements, then pirates will be determined to attack vessels because they will know for example that  if they're going to be caught, they're going to end up in a court. They were not going to find easy access to the black market to sell the goods. They're not going to be able to hide easily then victims of the pirate attack. Because as you can imagine if the vessel stays with the crew into the sea for a long period of time, naval forces will come along and they will try to rescue the people as what happened with the Maersk Alabama case, as we mentioned before.
So what is happening with the pirates is they putting the crew into small digi boats and they send them to into the forest or in places that they are not going to be easily be tracked from the authorities. And that's why I'm saying it's like if the authorities were able to tackle that kind of illicit activities in the land, then there is no room for the pirates to hide themselves.
Same story with going back to the story of Jack Sparrow, Jack Sparrow had to hidden the gems somewhere into the land because you cannot hide things into the sea. So having that kind of, even that we're looking forward into the sea for, for tackling the problem. Actually, we have to look back and to see how the overall operation is taking place in the land and tackle some of the roots of the problem.
Dave: This is interesting because I mean, there's the historical perspective of piracy and you've talked about that here and then there's the real world today, issues and challenges that are associated with it.
I mean, when did you realize the importance of addressing this specific issue, was there a specific kind of tipping point for you? Was it a triggering event? Or was it just kind of like: “Enough, I'm gonna write about this.”?
Dr. Karamperidis: Yeah, I think the triggering point it was. And if I remember on top of my head correctly, it was I read the report because I'm working a lot with the blue economy. And as I said, I'm economist. So I like to see what is happening over there in terms of operation and the economic impact.
And what I have found out is that the piracy in the Gulf of Guinea is costing per year 1.9 billion in terms of the blue economy. And when I'm talking about blue economy is about fisherman, not having the ability to go out and fish. And you know, not having the ability, for example, cruises, cruise vessels to come and have some tourist activities there or even to more complicated stuff, creating green energy, for example, not been having the ability to have any wind powered electric mills over there that they are able to generate electricity. And of course, that is a burden to the local economy.
And you know, we're talking about Nigeria, for example, is the prominent economy in the Gulf of Guinea and the forecasts for the economy in Nigeria. We're talking if I'm not mistaken again, but the population is going to triple by 2050. We're talking from 80 million to go up to 200 million people and things like that.
So as you can imagine an economy that's growing rapidly as the economy of Nigeria with a huge population that is expanding having the right economic opportunities for the local people. I think that will help them to prosper because prosperity, I think that should be the thing that we should care about everybody.
And that helps human beings. I like to see prosperity and I like to see happy people because the more money you have, the more happy you will be.
Dave: I cannot argue with that.
Just as a wrap up question here and this is the question that pretty much all my guests dread, but I have to ask it anyhow: What is the single key point or maybe one or two points that youwould recommend to either the NATO organization or the greater audience for this program that they should take away from this topic?
Dr. Karamperidis: Oh, that's a big $1 million question as we give to say.
Dave:  Go for it.
Dr. Karamperidis: OK. The one recommendation to NATO. Oops. OK, let me think for a sec. I think the, the key message that we came out from the report is as I said, if, if you really want to tackle something like piracy, don't look for the obvious, don't look in the sea, see the roots of the problem. It's like a tree, you know, you see a tree blossoming and all that kind of stuff. But if the tree doesn't have solid roots, then you're not expecting for that tree to blossom for a long period of time.
So I think even though we're talking about piracy. And the problem is that over the years, pirates have become more and more sophisticated and from a range of 30 nautical miles of operation now, they managed to expand to 200 nautical miles of operation, which is a massive area when we're talking about the Gulf of Guinea and it's mission impossible for NATO or anybody else to patrol in such a big area.
I think the best thing to do is try to tackle what is happening on land and try to create coordinations, try to coordinate with the local authorities, try to bring NGOs into the game, try to bring naval that they want to contribute naval forces that they want to contribute in the region for whatever reason they want to contribute over them, try to bring everything together in the same table and try to coordinate the resources because as we know, resources are not fast, you know, naval forces, they've seen a decline because of the cost of maintaining all that they can be everywhere because at the moment, unfortunately, we have a lot of issues because of geopolitical tensions, you know, mentioned earlier on Russia, Ukraine War, the tensions in the Pacific Ocean.
So it's like we can't have as many vessels as we need in any region. So in terms of prioritizing, try to be clever in terms of how you redeploy your assets there and that will save energy resources which are key and paramount for the today's military I think.
Dave: That’s brilliant. We've been speaking to Dr. Stavros Karamperidis. Stavros, this has been enlightening , even with all the Johnny Depp, Captain Jack Sparrow stuff brought up there. This has been fascinating and, obviously piracy is something we should all be paying very close attention to.
Thank you for your time today.
Dr. Karamperidis: You're welcome. Thank you very much, Dave.
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A reminder that Dr. Karamperidis’ article can be found on the OPEN Publications website, and you’ll find a link for that at the top of these show notes. OPEN Publications are produced by Allied Command Transformation Strategic Plans and Policy. However, OPEN Publications are not formal NATO documents and do not represent the official opinions or positions of NATO or individual nations.
OPEN is an information and knowledge management network focused on improving the understanding of complex issues, facilitating information sharing, and enhancing situational awareness. OPEN products are based upon links to open source information from a wide variety of organizations, research centers, and media sources. However, OPEN does not endorse and cannot guarantee the accuracy or objectivity of these sources. The intellectual property rights reside with NATO and absent specific permission, OPEN publications cannot be sold or reproduced for commercial purposes. Neither NATO or any NATO command organization or agency, nor any person acting on their behalf may be held responsible for the use which may be made on the information can contained therein.
OPEN Echoes is a free thinking, open discussion program that aims to stimulate dialogue, broaden understanding, and foster relationships that can help prepare NATO for future challenges.
OPEN Echoes is a production of the OPEN editorial board. Producer Dan Chichester, engineer Dave Summers.

OPEN Echoes - EP004 - 21st Century Information Environment Trends out to 2040 - Dr. Larry Kuznar

OPEN ECHOES Episode #4
An audio reading of “21st Century Information Trends Out to 2040” by Dr. Lawrence A. Kuznar.
Listeners can access the original publication here.
The reading length is 55 minutes.
OPEN Echoes reflects the original thoughts, analyses, and viewpoints shared by academics, thought leaders and non-military experts — spreading ideas, perspectives, and insights across the globe.
It’s our hope that the insights shared in these episodes will help to impact and influence thinking and conversations long after you take off your headphones.
OPEN Echoes alternates episodes between compelling interviews with non-NATO subject matter experts, and readings from OPEN's wide range of publications. In this episode, we present an audio recording of the OPEN Publication, “21st Century Information Trends Out to 2040: The Challenges and Opportunities in the Integration of its Physical, Cognitive, and Virtual Dimensions,” by Dr. Lawrence A. Kuznar.
Listeners should note that this audio reading does not include the references, images or diagrams included in the original publication. References, images and diagrams can be found in the original publication, which can be accessed and downloaded here.

OPEN Echoes - EP003 - Dr. Christian Matt

OPEN ECHOES Episode #3
An interview with Dr. Christian Matt
OPEN Echoes reflects the original thoughts, analyses, and viewpoints shared by academics, thought leaders and non-military experts — spreading ideas, perspectives, and insights across the globe.
It’s our hope that the insights shared in these episodes will help to impact and influence thinking and conversations long after you take off your headphones.
OPEN Echoes alternates episodes between compelling interviews with non-NATO subject matter experts, and readings from OPEN's wide range of publications. In this episode, we interview Dr. Christian Matt.
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Dr. Christian Matt is a professor and co-director of the Institute of Information Systems at the University of Bern in Switzerland. He is also the author of "Strategic Aspects of Digital Transportation for Military Organisations." Dr. Matt is fascinated by how digital technologies lead to new opportunities and paradigm shifts for business, public institutes, society, and individuals. With a focus on the managerial aspects of digital transformation and the responsible design of artificial intelligence applications, Dr. Matt conducts research, teaches, and consults with various organizations on their digital future.
This OPEN Echoes interview explores:
- How digital transformation goes beyond technology and requires a comprehensive organizational approach.
- The four dimensions of digital transformation are technological, value creation, organizational changes, and resource planning.
- Where military organizations face challenges in digital transformation, including high security standards and regulatory constraints.
- An emphasis on the need for a balance between agility and security in digital transformation for military organizations.
Dr. Matt’s article, "Strategic Aspects of Digital Transportation for Military Organisations," is available on the OPEN Publications website. [LINKTO: https://issuu.com/spp_plp/docs/open_publication_digital_transformation?fr=sMjRlYzU4MzM2MjU]
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Welcome to OPEN Echoes. OPEN stands for “Other Perspectives Exchange Network.” Our mission is to explore diverse, insightful and sometimes disruptive viewpoints on matters crucial to NATO.
The lightly-edited transcript of this episode’s interview with Dr. Matt follows:
Dave Summers: On today's program we're speaking to Dr. Christian Matt. He's the author of Strategic Aspects of Digital Transportation for military organizations. Hello, Christian, how are you today?
Dr. Christian Matt: Hello, Dave. I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you?
Dave: I'm doing fine. Thank you. The standard question I ask all of our guests is if you don't mind, please introduce yourself to the listeners and give us some background about how you got to where you are in life.
Dr. Matt: . First of all, many thanks for your interest and for having me. Dave, it's a great pleasure. My name is Christian Matt. I'm a professor and co-director of the Institute of Information Systems at the University of Berne in Switzerland.
And as part of my work, I do research and teaching on the topics of managerial aspects of digital transformation, as well as the responsible design of artificial intelligence applications and on these topics, I also consult companies of various clients, supporting them and finding suitable ways into their digital future.
Dave: Who or what inspired you or influenced you to write about this particular issue.
Dr. Matt: Well, in the past 10 years or so, have shown us that digital transformation is often not just a technological challenge. In fact, we see a number of examples of firms and other institutions that might have decent technological skills, but that still do not achieve the level of digital transformation they were actually hoping for.
And in many cases, part of the problem is actually a too strong focus on technological aspects at the same time neglecting one or even several other key dimensions for the success of their digital transformation endeavor. So along with the aforementioned technological component, three other dimensions matter at least equally.
So first institutions should clearly analyze the effects of digital transformation on their value creation. So how they can create value for the different stakeholders they service.
Second, institutions also need to analyze which organizational changes are required for them to support and sustain their digital transformation endeavor. And third institutions need to plan and secure the required financial and non-financial resources that are needed to perform their digital transformation.
And even as of today, we see that many organizations still struggle with finding the right balance between these four different dimensions. And we also see that those challenges are even harder for institutions from particular sectors and with particular characteristics. So typical sectors here include for instance, public services, the health sector, the legal sector, but also military organizations.
Dave: I'm curious if you do if you don't mind, could you give us the quick Dr. Christian Matt definition of the term digital transformation.
Dr. Matt: Sure. And that's an excellent question. Dave, and if you talk to different people, you might get very different answers. And in fact, we have even seen changes of what we understand of digital transformation.
So decades ago, this was mostly centered around digitizing previously analog signals. So from an analog signal, they were brought into the 01 world of digital signals. However, that's still accurate in a way but it's not complete anymore.
So today, we understand much more of digital transformation. So we can say digital transformation relates to the usage and effects of digital technologies for organizations. And it describes their transformation towards using such digital technologies. And these effects are far more than just having a new software installed in a certain business unit.
For instance, it also relates to substantial changes to business processes for instance, but also to business models. So what the organizations do, how they create value to their stakeholders. All this is comprised under the term digital transformation in our current understanding.
Dave: That's very helpful. Thank you so much. So if you don't mind, give us a little behind the scenes here. How did you approach the process of acquiring, analyzing and presenting this rather complex information?
Dr. Matt: Well, underlying to this process are mainly two main challenges and considerations. So first of all, when talking about digital transformation — and this was also part of the understanding I wanted to bring across — we often have to deal with audiences that are quite heterogeneous.
So they comprise often experts from technology domains. But at the same time, also experts from various kinds of non-technology domains and units. And therefore, also the readers of the publication are likely to have a very different expertise when it comes to technological aspects.
So one goal of the article was therefore to connect technology specific characteristics with strategic organizational challenges and measures. And to describe this on a level that is comprehensive both for the tech but also the more organizational non tech experts.
And the second challenge was well, the sheer breadth of potential topics of interest around digital transformation. So indeed, digital transformation can comprise various topics and it can consist of very different projects also dependent on the organization or the specific organizational unit in question. It can comprise indeed a software installation in a single business unit or organizational unit.
It can also comprise changes to the entire organization and their business models. So therefore, my goal here was to present an overview of recent key challenges and measures of strategic aspects of digital transformation. And importantly, those challenges and measures do not necessarily originate from or are unique to military organizations.
However, I paid particular attention to adopting these topics to the particular context of military organizations.
Dave: That's an excellent point. Seeing as it just seems so much of technology and military thinking and planning and strategy seems to have evolved in parallel so many times throughout history.
I'm interested here. When do you anticipate seeing any tangible changes or progress or movement in relation to some of the issues that you've raised in this publication?
Dr. Matt: Excellent question. And well, digital transformation is a cross organizational transformation that typically consumes lots of resources and also, time. Here, in the case of military organizations, this also involves , quite a strict organizational and regulatory framework, but it also involves numerous partners on an international scale.
And therefore, the whole undertaking typically becomes even more complex and also more time consuming. And therefore, it would be naive to believe this will happen overnight.
Nevertheless, the transformation here and the importance of such strategic factors have already been recognized. So, something is already happening, and I assume that the publication here will further stimulate these processes and provide additional inspiration to them, bringing different stakeholders on one table.
Dave: How do you believe that this publication, this article that you've written contributes to the broader conversation? There's an awful lot of noise out there right now.
There's an awful lot of everybody's got an opinion about this type of thing. How do you think your publication contributes to the broader, perhaps more intelligent overview of this understanding?
Dr. Matt: So while the general literature and digital transformation is quite broad, there's far less works directly for the particular context of military organizations.
So, for most the publication here seeks to provide a structured overview of recent key topics here and what they mean in particular for military organizations. So therefore, one goal is also to bring together these diverse stakeholders, some from a technology part with others, more from the organizational domain to  initiate discussions in an ideal case here.
The publication will make those rethink who have so far only had the technological glasses on to make them realize the relevance of non-technological organizational aspects. And here we have ample evidence especially from the private sector that a too strong focus on technologies can be a big mistake.
However, in addition to that, I also see the particular contribution by presenting those very specific organizational challenges for military organizations also for our learning beyond what is necessary in this particular case.
So here we have a case with particularly high hurdles in in this domain. May it be high security standards? May it be a strong regulatory framework, the international complex collaborations involved here.
And while this environment may not be unique, we can still say it's characterized by being particularly severe. So, learning how we can transfer insights from other less severe domains and apply them here in this particularly difficult case, will also provide us with important knowledge beyond the concrete application case.
So here we already know that unfortunately, there is no one fits it all solution when it comes to digital transformation strategies, and these contextual factors are immensely important, and I believe applying them here to military organizations will also be fruitful for other cases that are less severe. whether they are in the military domain or also in other sectors.
Dave: I'm an Ex-IT guy and I've often been fascinated by the paradox of technology. Way back when, when everyone was working on mainframes, you had that sort of centralized access to information and the power of that information and whether it's analysis or forecasting or whatever it might have been planning.
But over the decades —  PCs, networks, client server or smartphones — all of this super high-end speed and technology has been pushed way out to the fringes to everybody and that's liberating, but it seems to all tie back to networks.
And you can sort of gate things at the networks. Where's your, where's your head at? What are your thoughts about this sort of paradox of pushing out power, but yet controlling networks?
Dr Matt: Right, that's an excellent point. And indeed, we see along with digital transformation, we see numbers of aspects here that drive further toward a network centric view.
So, one aspect here are for instance, digital ecosystems where different stakeholders work together on providing value to consumers, and stakeholders of various kinds with potentially very different interests.
Another example here would be open innovation. So, the previous narrow centered closed look of we develop everything internally is often, not really appropriate for developing digital solutions anymore.
So also, here we have a network perspective. And those two examples show that again for the context of military organizations, they might be a particular challenge actually.
Why is that? Because here we have high security standards. We have a regulatory framework that may not allow for instance, storing data outside of the country or storing and exchanging data with particular stakeholders.
So, all these aspects here present a challenge which could restrict military organizations, from getting the fruits of digital transformation. So that's a problem here and the problem becomes even more problematic.
Why is that? Because also for the development of such solutions, more agility is needed when you work with partners on an international scale. The agility requires things such as for instance, an experimenting culture learning from failure, things like that.
This is all not given in a classical chain of command structure, where you have explicit control rights where you may not question certain things. So that's a challenge.
And here, I think military organizations need to find a suitable balance for them. Digital Transformation requires them to change their way of thinking of collaborating with others.
However, of course, there will still be security concerns and things like that which may not allow them to a degree of openness, flexibility and agility that we see from the private domain.
So, I think they need to find a balance that is right for them. But I think it also requires a certain change of thinking in their head independent of what the regulatory framework allows them to do. And that in some cases should be the first step.
Dave: Excellent. And just to wrap up, what would you say is the single or point or maybe two points that override this whole article that you would recommend to both NATO organization folks and the general public that they should take away from this topic?
Dr. Matt: Well, I think there's a number of important aspects to consider about if I had to choose one. My main point here is that digital transformation is not just about technology, it's more in comprehensive organizational matter, that requires, as I said, new ways of thinking, collaborating and acting in order to establish a fruitful basis that is necessary to pursue digital transformation successfully.
And I would recommend that those organizations that are indeed hampered by additional obstacles, may be the regulatory framework, security concerns and so on and so forth that those organizations should not shy away from digital transformation.
They should rather approach this even more systematically and importantly, they should see digital transformation, not as a one-off project, but rather as a continuous process. And the earlier they start with that, the better.
Dave:  We've been speaking to Dr. Christian Matt, he's author of “Strategic Aspects of Digital Transformation for Military Organizations”. Christian, it's been so great to meet you and spend time with you.
Dr. Matt: Thank you very much, Dave. It was my pleasure.
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A reminder that  Dr. Matt’s article can be found on the OPEN Publications website, and you’ll find a link for that at the top of these show notes. OPEN Publications are produced by Allied Command Transformation Strategic Plans and Policy. However, OPEN Publications are not formal NATO documents and do not represent the official opinions or positions of NATO or individual nations.
OPEN is an information and knowledge management network focused on improving the understanding of complex issues, facilitating information sharing, and enhancing situational awareness. OPEN products are based upon links to open source information from a wide variety of organizations, research centers, and media sources. However, OPEN does not endorse and cannot guarantee the accuracy or objectivity of these sources. The intellectual property rights reside with NATO and absent specific permission, OPEN publications cannot be sold or reproduced for commercial purposes. Neither NATO or any NATO command organization or agency, nor any person acting on their behalf may be held responsible for the use which may be made on the information can contained therein.
OPEN Echoes is a free thinking, open discussion program that aims to stimulate dialogue, broaden understanding, and foster relationships that can help prepare NATO for future challenges.
OPEN Echoes is a production of the OPEN editorial board. Producer Dan Chichester, engineer Dave Summers.

OPEN Echoes - EP002 - The Changing Role of Russia in Space - Dr. Mariel Borowitz

OPEN ECHOES Episode #2
An audio reading of The Changing Role of Russia in Space by Dr. Mariel Borowitz.
Listeners can access the original publication at https://issuu.com/spp_plp/docs/the_changing_role_of_russia_in_space?fr=sNjNmNDU4MzM2MjU
The reading length is 56 minutes.
OPEN Echoes reflects the original thoughts, analyses, and viewpoints shared by academics, thought leaders and non-military experts — spreading ideas, perspectives, and insights across the globe.
It’s our hope that the insights shared in these episodes will help to impact and influence thinking and conversations long after you take off your headphones.
OPEN Echoes alternates episodes between compelling interviews with non-NATO subject matter experts, and readings from OPEN's wide range of publications. In this episode, we present an audio recording of the OPEN Publication, The Changing Role of Russia in Space by Dr. Mariel Borowitz.
Listeners should note that this audio reading does not include the references, images or diagrams included in the original publication. References, images and diagrams can be found in the original publication, which can be accessed and downloaded at https://issuu.com/spp_plp/docs/the_changing_role_of_russia_in_space?fr=sNjNmNDU4MzM2MjU

OPEN Echoes - EP001 - Dr. Andreas Liaropoulos

OPEN ECHOES Episode #1
An interview with Dr. Andreas Liaropoulos
OPEN Echoes reflects the original thoughts, analyses, and viewpoints shared by academics, thought leaders and non-military experts — spreading ideas, perspectives, and insights across the globe.  It’s our hope that the insights shared in these episodes will help to impact and influence thinking and conversations long after you take off your headphones. OPEN Echoes alternates episodes between compelling interviews with non-NATO subject matter experts, and readings from OPEN's wide range of publications. In this episode, we interview Dr. Andreas Liaropoulos.
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Dr. Andreas Liaropoulos is an esteemed assistant professor in the Department of International and European Studies at the University of Piraeus in Greece. With a background in international relations and security, Dr. LIAROPOLOUS holds a master's degree in intelligence and strategic studies from Aberystwyth in Wales, and a PhD from Swansea University, focusing on information warfare and military affairs. Over the course of his 10-year research career, Dr. LIAROPOLOUS has dedicated his efforts to understanding the impact of information and communication technology in cyberspace on security, strategy, and warfare. His expertise lies in the realms of information war, information security, propaganda, and strategic communication. Dr. LIAROPOLOUS recently authored a notable article for NATO titled "Information as an Instrument of Power: lessons learned from the war in Ukraine," where he explored the case study of Ukraine's conflict and highlighted the challenges posed by the weaponization of information.
This OPEN Echoes interview explores:
- The profound influence of information warfare and how it affects the entire spectrum of conflicts, ranging from information security to traditional warfare.- The ongoing debate surrounding the weaponization of information and the urgent need for societies to recognize the constant battle for perceptions, trust, and truth in the era of social media platforms and the internet.- The importance of understanding the changing nature of conflict and the critical role of empowered civil societies, government institutions, and the private sector in countering the challenges posed by hybrid warfare.- A call for a holistic approach to addressing the complex issue of information warfare, combining sociopolitical, technical, and cultural perspectives to safeguard democracy and effectively respond to evolving security challenges.
Dr. LIAROPOLOUS article, "Information as an Instrument of Power: lessons learned from the war in Ukraine," is available on the OPEN Publications website. 
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The lightly-edited transcript of this episode’s interview with Dr. LIAROPOLOUS follows:
DAVE: Our guest on today's program is Dr. Andreas Liaropoulos.  He's the author of a NATO OPEN article entitled “Information as an Instrument of Power: lessons learned from the war in Ukraine”. Andreas, so nice to meet you. How are you? 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: I'm fine. Thank you. I'm looking forward for our conversation. 
DAVE: Absolutely. If you don't mind, please, I find it's better practice to have our guests introduce themselves. So if you could, please just introduce yourself, give us a little bit of your background. Let us know how you got to where you are right now. 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: Sure, thank you.  Well, right now I'm an assistant professor in the University of Piraeus in Greece and the Department of International and European Studies in general. 
My background is on international relations, international security. I did my master’s on intelligence and strategic studies in Aberystwyth in Wales. I got my PhD in Swansea on information warfare and revolution, military affairs in general. 
And for the people that will have a chance to look at the article, the things I'm working on are in general on information war, information security issues that relate to propaganda, strategic communication and many other fancy terms. If I could just put it in one sentence, what I'm looking at, over 10 years of research, I might say is how the information and communication technology in cyberspace in general is affecting the basic things we know about security strategy, warfare, et cetera. 
So this bring also the current publication that I did for NATO, looking at the case study, let's say of Ukraine. 
DAVE: I'm wondering was it any specific person or organization who inspired you? I mean, other than NATO or if it was NATO, that's great, who inspired or influenced you to write about this particular issue? 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: I would say that the hard reality of international relations in NATO being part of that, I mean, let me put it in this way in general. As I said earlier, I look on how information, whether we call it operations, warfare, et cetera affects the whole conflict spectrum for things that have to do with, let's say information security up to things that we would label as traditionally speaking warfare. 
It’s not only my conclusion, but we live in an era where information and generally with social media platforms with internet is very important. So what inspired me is there is an ongoing, let's say discussion both in the, let's say academic community also within NATO, how do we deal with such a challenge? Whether it's Russia, whether it's China, whether it's somebody else. 
There is a phrase I use in my paper weaponization of information. If I just put it in just three words — it's just this how somebody, whether it's a state and national organization, a non state actor even if we look at, let's say ISIS or Al Qaeda in general, how does somebody weaponize information? 
I find this fascinating and, and doing research in general, but also in terms of NATO that 30 whatever, 40 years ago, we would see how NATO would fight another war so that things are very different nowadays. So with NATO has got the same challenges. 
This inspired me in terms of looking at this topic and more specific on what I would label as the Ukraine case study in my paper, I'd look at both the case of the Crimean annexation and the ongoing war. 
And I’m sure you heard about it that there was an ongoing debate for more than a decade, but mainly after the Crimean annexation about the nature of hybrid warfare about how things change. How do we, how we can distinguish certain types of security challenges? 
This is a strong debate within NATO and part of the I might not say solution, but part of the recommendations out there on how to deal with this challenge.  They all go under the spectrum of this information communication. 
Last all those similar terms, terminology about how to do strategic communication, propaganda, et cetera. So this in general discussion inspired me. 
And I was also taken by surprise by the Crimean Annexation and I found it interesting since last year with the the ongoing debate obviously and a war to  compare those two and see the lessons learned of how things have changed because we have the same actors in a way. Ukraine and Russia. 
But there are different let’s say case studies,  different battlefields,  different ways of conducting this way of weaponization of information. So it's not a single event that inspired me, but a set of things to be honest, it's sort of like you just open your eyes, current events could trigger any type of serious questioning. 
DAVE: I'm curious how did you approach the process of analyzing and presenting the complex information about this issue in your writing. 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: Yes. In a way it was a challenge. What do I mean with that? Because I mean, when you do research of course you go, you find, you have to do your open source intelligence to find your material. 
On the Crimea case, it was a bit easier on the ongoing my article covers from let's say February 2022 until the end of the year, more or less of 2002. So it was more challenging on, let's say the second case study in both cases. 
What I did, obviously, I focused on open source information, media reports, academic reports, open literature out there. I could not and I want to do that was not the purpose to do the cyber forensics of who did what or not. I just focused on what was out there in terms of open publication and in terms of constructing a certain narrative about Ukraine, about Russia, about the right or wrong. 
And in a way, I placed myself apart from a scholar also as an ordinary citizen. You open the TV, news reading newspaper and this shows up. So do you believe this? Do you not believe this thing like an ordinary citizen? I mean, do you buy this,  do you have to question this or not? 
So, in a way I placed myself, both as an academic scholar but also as as an ordinary whatever global citizen, I mean, at least in the western world. So they labeled it and thought about how I could approach all this open information, identify the narratives, see whether there is a shift in what either Russia or Ukraine was claiming back then in the Crimea case or nowadays in the current case and also see how the others mean NATO European Union, but also certain member states of both organization acted, reacted to this one thing that is  really interesting in this case because in in a way my research or everybody's research was a victim. 
Let me use this term of the reality of information operations. Because once that the day that Russia said, I'm cutting off the Russian internet from the global internet, suddenly you don't have access to it. So this is a strong to be honest constraint in terms of doing inserts. But again, it says something about the whole idea of information war. So if somebody says, Russia did this or that we have to keep in mind that we do not have access, at least on the, let's say the insight prone of what Russia was doing because everything is censored. 
So you don't have, you cannot have to be honest. I don't think anybody can have a good idea of what is happening also inside Russia. But this is an interesting  constraint because then you have to look at other Western  sites  platforms that kind of channeled this Russia information to the Western audience. 
And it's an interesting way to identify there's a saying…if you want to find the crime follow the money. So in a way in this crime, you have to follow the data, the information or to be more specific, the certain strategic narrative that is out there about. And what is the target audience always? I think that is the way of approaching this research paper. 
DAVE: That's fascinating. When do you anticipate seeing maybe tangible changes or progress in relation to this issue? 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: I think that we will see it change once the society understands that we are under a constant a war, a war about information, a war that is in our minds.
There's a conceptual battlefield because in very often I hear this also in students, who say, oh, we are not in a war, this is not a war, they understand war in the conventional way of we're sending an army there troops and they are fighting. Yes, then we are, of course, that is one element of the war. But another one is as we say the battle for the hearts and minds. 
So this is constantly in both if we label war time and peace time and this is done also in, let's say an internal front, whether that is the US, Greece, NATO member states or the outside, whether it's Russia, China, et cetera. We will see changes once this, let's say in cultural terms, this is understood, the society doesn't want to realize that we are in a state of war of in, in general of course, everybody wants peace and safety and security. But this is a reality out there that we are in a constant  battle about perceptions, perception, management, about  the truth out there about trust in general, whether I trust you, whether I trust my government, whether I trust certain institutions, whether it's the media, et cetera. 
So this is constantly and this is the idea, of the world, it's just one case study that really highlights this. Once we, and again, as we, you can say, the member states of NATO, we can say we as a society, we as individuals realize this then there will be some change because as I said earlier I thought of myself both as the scholar, as the author of this paper, but also as a global citizen. 
And once I realized do I have really to believe this, should I double check it? Should I just scroll down and look who is the author? Should I go in another search and oh, this is like a new website I never heard about it. Are you gonna do this because it's time consuming, right? 
But if you wanna protect yourself, your head, your mind, your conceptual battlefield. This is what you have to do. 
DAVE: I'm wondering how do you believe that your publication, this particular article might contribute to a broader conversation and understanding of this issue? 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: What  I think a good point about the article is that I don't, let's say, look on one dimension, I mean, in terms of time constraint and constraints of the length of the article I take, let's say a holistic approach. I try to understand the nature of this of this war, of the influence of the information operations, etcetera. 
I try to understand sociopolitical and culturally the combatants mainly, I'm looking at Russia  which is a unique actor in terms of utilizing the same. If you look at the culture, the history, they have a very good, let's say, record background and doing even during the Cold War, even early in the beginning of the 20th century, this sort of operation. 
So I look at this, but I also look at the, let's say more technical media oriented aspects and the lessons learned are not about Russia or Ukraine or NATO. They are, as I said earlier on your previous questions,  much broader. And this is what we have to realize that this information campaign warfare is looking at many things. 
It was also about the COVID and the the whole discussion about this information tomorrow morning, it might be about something else. It might be about elections in country A and country B. 
So, what I try to do is combine sociopolitical, technical, cyber, whatever elements and look at the big picture, which is the small picture is actually the case study. And if we look at, OK, we let's say we identified the problem successfully up to a point. 
But what do you do to solve it again? The answer is not, I don't know the war or do something that is, let's say monolithic, you have to look again at the whole spectrum and this involves media, internet literacy. It involves any country out there to really engage with all the instruments and all the organizations, whether it's the Ministry Point Affairs, the Department of Defense, the Intelligence Community, it's not, let's say an answer that just one organization or one sector will really offer. 
You have to have the society to work with. You need the private sector to be engaged. If you look up at about the regulations of social media platforms, for example, this is one angle that we have to think of and we have to think of a again or twice if you, if you want in terms of democracy, how does a democracy respond to these issues? 
DAVE: I think this is the good point about the article that it takes a more, let's say a holistic approach to the issue and just to wrap up, this is a question that every guest really hates, but I have to ask it: what is the single key point that you would recommend to the NATO organization specifically or the general audience, a global audience about what they should take away about this topic. 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: From a very broad point of view we need, in general as a society, we as NATO, we as the academic community, we need to understand how war or conflict in general is changing and we need to,  let's say adapt to the reality of this. So what I think that somebody reads the article to really understand is that a strategy to counter this? 
Because I said, hey, look, we let's say identify, we know the problem but how to deal with it. And this is a discussion that has been going on inside NATO, at least, at least since  the Crimean annexation. And let me remind you that there is, as I said earlier, a whole discussion about hybrid warfare, hybrid threats, hybrid, whatever, but there is no countering hybrid doctrine, a strategy. 
This is really the challenge. Ok. So it's, let's say a new type of warfare. So how do you deal with that? NATO is mainly let's say a defense security organization, but it's not, the challenge is not strictly military go and do a war bomb, whatever destroy something. 
So this is the most important for me in point that we have to think of war in a broader terms in the more societal terms and to fight and win whatever this type of war, you need an empowered civil society, you need synergies between the government, its institutions, the private sector. 
Let's say I teach this to my students and they are not really, oh so this means that we are in a state that it doesn't look very peaceful and, and, and I use the term which is, I don't know, grammatically, maybe not correct. It's “un peace”. So strictly speaking, it's not war, but it's definitely not peace. So it's a state where you don't feel that comfortable with how things are. 
But you have to realize that that's the first step and do something about it. Do something as a democracy. If we label ourselves of democracy, do something with the information you receive with how you are weaponized or how you weaponize your own information, do your own counter narrative and say, this is the truth and if you look at what NATO or in general, the western world is doing there is an aim, I mean, theoretically somebody could do the same thing. 
Ok, let's do our propaganda. You know, llet's do our dissemination of fake news. No, you can do that theoretically. And I'm not saying it's not big but are you gonna, let's say, fight this kind of war with your own values and your own weapons, how you label yourself how you identify yourself as, let's say, liberal democracy. 
So this is a challenge.  I mean, I wouldn't recommend OK, let's do censorship on the one hand it's it's a thing that might help  the information security aspects. On the other hand, you say I am a democracy, I am not gonna do the same things that an authoritarian state is doing. This is their advantage, let's say of the authoritarian world up to a point. And this is a disadvantage more or less in the democracies. 
And I think of NATO as an alliance with many members and a couple of new tomorrow. So are we going to have are we going to all be on the same page on that or not? This is another challenge. So there's not one point, I guess there are many points today that we should consider on this, on this issue. 
DAVE: It's all good. This has been a fascinating conversation. 
We've been speaking to Doctor Andreas Liaropolous. He's the author of the article, “Information as an instrument of power lessons learned from the war in Ukraine.”
Andreas, so great to meet you and, thank you for your time. 
DR. LIAROPOLOUS: I enjoyed it Dave. Thanks a lot.